On 28 Feb, 00:49, Raymond <Bluerhy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 9:28=C2=A0pm, Walt <papakochenb...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > On 27 Feb, 19:31, Raymond <Bluerhy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 27, 7:17=EF=BF=BDpm, Walt <papakochenb...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > On 27 Feb, 16:24, curtjester1 <curtjest...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 27, 10:44=EF=BF=BDam, Walt <papakochenb...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wro=
te:> On 27 Feb, 01:21, Raymond <Bluerhy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Raymond....I'm sorry if you were offended by my post. I didn't intend
to be critical of your KNOWLEDGE of the case, I believe you know the
case very well, and I appreciate having yet another person in the
group with a good grasp of the case. The title of this thread is
"Miss info about the Carcano", and CJ asked a question about the
7.35mm Carcano . You did an excellent job of answering although I
thought you presented extraneous information above and beyond what was
required.
I mentioned that I thought there was a foul up in communication among
the conspirators.... and I based that on the fact that they had
planted a bag that was too small to conceal a 40 inch long Model 38,
and they did that because they thought that Oswald had bought a 36
inch Carcano Carbine. They apparently had read the Klein ad and
assumed that Oswald had a 36 inch Carcano carbine that could be
disassembled to a length of 23 1/4 inches. I never intended to get
into the paper bag issue and divert attention from the subject of the
thread.
If in fact the rifle found in the TSBD had been a 36 inch carbine the
story about Oswald smuggling it into the building in a paper sack
would have been plausible. ie; Frazier's estimate of a two foot
length for thje bag on the seat of his car, would have been ample to
conceal a disassembled carbine. The sack found beneath the window
( If that's where it was found?) would have been big enough to conceal
a fully assembled 36 inch carbine.
>
> > > > > Hey Walt, you know anything about any 7.35 MC's? =EF=BF=BDI am
rea=
ding a book
> > > > > where this CIA OP (Robert Morrow) was in the middle of Shaw,
Ferri=
e,
> > > > > Oswald, Cuba and assignments, and says the 7.35's were brought
in
> > > > > because they were good sniping rifles, and they had known of
Oswal=
d's
> > > > > purchase of the 6.65 one, and were going to use the weapons in
the=
> > > > > blaming of Oswald for the killing of the President?
>
> > > > > The book is Betrayal
>
> > > > > CJ
>
> > > > > > > Miscellaneous Information on the Carcano
>
> > > > > > > Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS)
> > > > > > > "Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s
that=
the
> > > > > > > Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
> > > > > > > conjunction with the Feldsott brothers,who won the bidding
wit=
h a
> > > > > > > total offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately
=EF=BF=BD570,=
000 guns." =EF=BF=BD"...
> > > > > > > Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included
i=
n the
> > > > > > > contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
> > > > > > > ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items
separat=
e from
> > > > > > > the surplus weapons, on three occasions."
>
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDAug. 8, 1960 ....................653,176
ca=
rtridges 6.5 mm
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDJuly 31, 1961....................
1,304,352=
=EF=BF=BD same
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDJune 6, 1962 .....................
652,176 =
=EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDsame
>
> > > > > > > The price was =EF=BF=BD$13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more
t=
han a penny per
> > > > > > > bullet.
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD---- THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
>
> > > > > > > Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in
the=
US
> > > > > > > before Crescent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the
7.3=
5 mm as
> > > > > > > early as the spring of 1958 =EF=BF=BDIn their ad of 4-58,
the =
MANNLICHER HIGH
> > > > > > > POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95- Good outside, very good inside.
A=
very
> > > > > > > good outside-Excellent inside sold for $14.95 and an
Excellent=
inside
> > > > > > > and outside cost $16.95. For 98 cents, a leather sling was
ava=
ilable
> > > > > > > and a cleaning rod cost 79 cents. Military ammo in clips of
si=
x-12 for
> > > > > > > 98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
>
> > > > > > > The following month-the same ad, but the sling and rod were
in=
cluded
> > > > > > > free. =EF=BF=BD From 7-58 until 10-60, Klein's did not
> > > > > > > advertise any MCs. Then, in 10-60 appeared their ad for the
CU=
STOM
> > > > > > > S****TERIZED MODEL for $19.88.
>
> > > > > > > In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN
RIFLEMA=
N . =EF=BF=BDIn
> > > > > > > 1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : "Let's find out
where =
some of
> > > > > > > these Carcano rifles have gone." =EF=BF=BDMacy's and Sears
Roe=
buck , as well
> > > > > > > as s****ting supply stores, discount stores and
Army-and-Navy-s=
urplus
> > > > > > > stores sold the weapon and the ammo.
>
> > > > > > > Some of these guns came from Finland:
>
> > > > > > > "During the first winter of the war with Russia, Finland
procu=
red from
> > > > > > > Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and
6.=
5 mm
> > > > > > > ammunition which Finland decided to manufacture for these
weap=
ons
> > > > > > > during WW II. Finland received, in addition, a supply of
Itali=
an M38,
> > > > > > > 7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw
li=
mited
> > > > > > > service as they were relegated to use by the stationary
troops=
, such
> > > > > > > as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc.
To=
day ,
> > > > > > > the greater ****tion of the M 38 carbines Finland received
can =
be
> > > > > > > traced to the U.S. market as surplus war goods."
>
> > > > > > > ----- =EF=BF=BD FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
>
> > > > > > > I have noticed that there is an interest in the Carcano, its
c=
osts,
> > > > > > > and also questions about the ammunition. Do yourselves a
favor=
and see
> > > > > > > you can still buy this book =EF=BF=BD-THE MARKETING OF A
WEAPO=
N. The book was
> > > > > > > produced by Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and
e=
arly
> > > > > > > 60's, many varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles
wer=
e
> > > > > > > offered at low prices. ( I recently sold my copy on eBay.)
>
> > > > > > > Nivaggi has photo-copied, from he pages of "American
Rifleman"=
the
> > > > > > > marketing of the weapon for the years 1958-1964. Included
are =
full
> > > > > > > sized copies of Klein's S****ting Goods ads . Also, ads from
va=
rious
> > > > > > > other dealers and distributors, all selling MCs and MC ammo.
T=
he book
> > > > > > > contains questions regarding the MC; various ammo loads for
it=
; its
> > > > > > > clip, and other great information about the stopping and
"knoc=
kdown"
> > > > > > > capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of
Ame=
rican
> > > > > > > Rifleman.
>
> > > > > > > Many questions being asked will all be answered if you own
THE=
> > > > > > > MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
>
> > > > > > > Another book that will provide valuable information that
comes=
from a
> > > > > > > real expert on the Carcano. Contact Richard Hobbs, 3958
Cambri=
dge Rd.
> > > > > > > # 162, Cameron Park, CA 95682. (Last address I have of
Hobbs) =
=EF=BF=BDSearch
> > > > > > > bio on Hobbs
>
> > > > > > > Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and probably
knows=
more
> > > > > > > about the weapon than anyone in this country. His book: THE
CA=
RCANO
> > > > > > > Italy's Military Rifle.(About $18.00) He is not a JFK
"BUFF."-=
but he
> > > > > > > sure knows that weapon. =EF=BF=BDIf you own these two books,
y=
ou will hardly
> > > > > > > ever have a question about the Carcano again.
>
> > > > > > > Also see: =EF=BF=BDhttp://www.rememuseum.org.uk/
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD
=
=EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD
=EF=BF=BDhttp://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/arm=
index.htm
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD
=
=EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD
=EF=BF=BDhttp://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rif=
les/armisrc.htmhttp://www.carbin....
>
> > > > > > > "The sling is not a standard rifle sling but appears to be a
m=
usical
> > > > > > > instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera
bag=
.." 3H
> > > > > > > 397 SA Frazier, FBI.
>
> > > > > > > The sling on the TSBD rifle was a part of a U.S. Air Force
hol=
ster and
> > > > > > > harness set, patented by Norris N. Murray, on March 6, 1956,
p=
atent
> > > > > > > No. 2,819,830. =EF=BF=BD( see U.S. Military Holsters and
Pisto=
l cartridge
> > > > > > > Boxes By Edward Scott Meadows, 1987 , 376.)
>
> > > > > > This is BS...created by that lyin urine examiner.....Dr
Peesling=
er..
> > > > > > or whatever his name was.
>
> > > > > > The sling is not a sling at all...at least not a sling as the
US=
> > > > > > military uses it. =EF=BF=BDUS military uses the leather or
canva=
s straps on
> > > > > > the rifles for the dual purpose of carrying the rifle and as a
w=
ay of
> > > > > > getting a more secure grip on the rifle for more accurate
firing=
..
>
> > > > > > The "sling" on a Mannlicher Carcano serves only to carry the
rif=
le.
> > > > > > The strap is used to carry the rifle across a soldiers back
whil=
e
> > > > > > freeing his hands from the burden. =EF=BF=BDThere are many
photo=
s available
> > > > > > that show Italian soldiers with the rifle slung across their
bac=
ks.
> > > > > > They did not carry the rifle hanging from their shoulder as
Amer=
ican
> > > > > > soldiers do. =EF=BF=BDThe Italian method of carrying the rifle
m=
ade it more
> > > > > > difficult, and slower, to ready it for firing. =EF=BF=BD The
exc=
eption to the
> > > > > > usual Italian method of carrying the rifle across the back
were
> > > > > > Mussolini's body guards. =EF=BF=BDMussolini had an elite corps
o=
f body guards
> > > > > > called the "Guardie Del Duce". =EF=BF=BDThey had custom black
an=
d silver
> > > > > > uniforms, with glossy black helmets, belts, and boots.
> > > > > > The stocks of their model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcanos were
stained=
black
> > > > > > and they were equipped with custom slings, of glossy black
leath=
er,
> > > > > > with a wide leather shoulder pad attached by rings to the
sling.=
=EF=BF=BDThis
> > > > > > shoulder pad was designed to relieve the fatigue, and
pressure, =
on the
> > > > > > guards shoulders when they stood for long hours with the rifle
h=
anging
> > > > > > from their shoulders.
>
> > > > > > The rifle that was found in the TSBD is a very rare Guardie
del =
duce
> > > > > > rifle that was equiooed with one of those custom slings.
=EF=BF=
=BDThe colored
> > > > > > photo of the TSBD rifle that appeared in the November 1983
issue=
of
> > > > > > LIFE magazine shows that the rifle stock is stained black as
the=
> > > > > > Guardie Del Duce rifles were, and it has the custom sling
> > > > > > attached.
>
> > > > > > > And, the alleged Oswald (TSBD) rifle was not just another
Ital=
ian
> > > > > > > surplus Carcano. The rifle was part of a small lot of rifles
t=
hat were
> > > > > > > specially ordered to be the rifles of the Guardie del Duce,
an=
elite
> > > > > > > group of one hundred men charged with the job of guarding
Muss=
olini .
> > > > > > > The stocks were thinner, lighter and were dyed black. (
R.HOBB=
S, The
> > > > > > > Carcano, Italy's Military Rifle)
>
> > > > > > > And, it was not the rifle that LHO had delivered in the
spring=
of
> > > > > > > 1963. The TSBD weapon was a longer rifle by four inches with
s=
ling
> > > > > > > swivels on the side of the rifle. The backyard photo rifle
had=
the
> > > > > > > swivels on the bottom . The problem!! =EF=BF=BDThe rifle
deliv=
ered from
> > > > > > > Klein's had the serial number C-2766. So did the TSBD rifle
. =
That
> > > > > > > can't be, unless someone changed the number, which would
have =
been
> > > > > > > very easy to do. This weapon had the serial number on the
back=
end of
> > > > > > > the barrel, where it screws into the receiver . A simple
matte=
r of
> > > > > > > minutes to remove and not much more to remove and replace
the =
serial
> > > > > > > number. Which means, if I am right, the rifle in the
National =
Archives
> > > > > > > has a number that it did not have prior to 11-22-63.
>
> > > > > > > From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination
communi=
ty.:
>
> > > > > > > "Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle?
=EF=BF=
=BDI do!!! =EF=BF=BDAbout
> > > > > > > six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed
to =
read
> > > > > > > C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite
simpl=
e" (Oh,
> > > > > > > by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody -
I =
would
> > > > > > > get the serial number of their gun - registered to them -
find=
a
> > > > > > > duplicate and change to their SN. =EF=BF=BDI would then
leave =
it at the scene
> > > > > > > of the crime"
>
> > > > > > > Martha Moyer
>
> > > > > > > Numerous people have compared the photos taken by Marina
with =
photos
> > > > > > > of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same
weap=
on.
>
> > > > > > > SEE THE SECOND
CARCANOhttp://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c276=
6.htmlhttp://www.geocities.co...
>
> > > > > > > Its a matter of record that there was another MC rifle with
th=
e #2766,
> > > > > > > that found its way from Montreal to Chicago.The Chicago
vendor=
was
> > > > > > > Alden's. This was the only MC with that number. Italy used
the=
same
> > > > > > > numbering system as Germany
>
> > > > > > > The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive
marki=
ng
> > > > > > > system that the Germans used for identification, serial
number=
s,
> > > > > > > manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit
serial =
number,
> > > > > > > progressed through the thousand
>
> > > > > ...
>
> > > > > read more =EF=BF=BD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > The 7.35 cartridge was adopted by the Italian Army in 1938.
=EF=BF=
=BDThere
> > > > were three Mannlicher Carcano weapons designed to fire the new
7.35 =
X
> > > > 53 mm cartridge. They were the 40 inch Model 38 Short Rifle, the
36
> > > > inch Cavalry Carbine, and the 36 inch Troop special. =EF=BF=BD
None =
of them
> > > > were good sniper rifles ( long range weapons) because of the short
> > > > barrels and the fixed iron sights. =EF=BF=BDTheir value to the CIA
l=
ay in the
> > > > fact that they are very easy with simple modifications to make
into
> > > > easily concealable assassination weapons. =EF=BF=BDNaturally the
36 =
ich Cav
> > > > carbine and the 36 inch troop special were slighly more desirable
th=
an
> > > > the 4 inch longer short rifle. =EF=BF=BDThe Troop special was
slight=
ly more
> > > > desirable than the Cav Carbine because the cav carbine had a
folding=
> > > > bayonet attached to the front sight.
>
> > > > Morrow claimed that he modified three 40 inch Model 38's to be
used =
as
> > > > assassination weapons in Cuba.
>
> > > > The shortest length a 40" Model 38 can be reduced to is 26 1/2
inche=
s
> > > > While the 36" Troop Special can be reduced to 23 1/4 inches.
=EF=BF=
=BD That 3
> > > > 1/4 inch diference makes the Troop Special a little more
concealable=
> > > > than the Short Rifle, and therefore a better choice to be modified
t=
o
> > > > an assassination weapon.
>
> > > > I know Morrow's story, .........but I have no idea why he was
ordere=
d
> > > > to buy MC's that were designed to fire the =EF=BF=BD7.35 X 53
cartri=
dge. =EF=BF=BDThe
> > > > 7.35 weapons were not nearly as plentyful as the same rifles in
> > > > 6.5mm. =EF=BF=BDI've long thought that there was a foul up in
Dallas=
, and
> > > > someone thought that a modified 36 inch MC was going to be planted
i=
n
> > > > the TSBD. =EF=BF=BDThat's where all of this crap about Oswald
disass=
embling
> > > > the rifle had it's roots. =EF=BF=BDIf a modified =EF=BF=BD36 inch
Ca=
rcano had been
> > > > planted in the TSBD, then the cops could made everything fit in
the
> > > > framing of Oswald. What I'm saying is;.... A modified 36 inch
carbin=
e
> > > > could have been quickly and easily disassembled to a length of 23
1/=
4
> > > > inches by removing only two screws. =EF=BF=BDThat length would
have =
fit in the
> > > > paper sack that Buell Frazier saw on the back seat of his car.
=EF=
=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDThe
> > > > foul up is probably also responsible for the arguments that Oswald
> > > > ordered a 36 inch carbine. =EF=BF=BD Someone thought that Oswald
had=
bought a
> > > > 36 inch carbine and had modified it as an assassination
rifle....and=
> > > > that's the data the conspirators were working with when they said
th=
ey
> > > > had found the sack that Oswald used to smuggle the gun into the
> > > > building....Imagine the panic when they discovered that the sack
the=
y
> > > > had was about over a =EF=BF=BDfoot too short to contain the 36 MC
> > > > (disassembled) TSBD rifle.
>
> > > The Paper Sack
> > > The largest component of the disassembled rifle is the stock, which
> > > measures approximately 36 inches. There is no way that it could fit
in=
> > > the package that Randle described. Warren Commission lawyer Joseph
> > > Ball asked Randle about the length of the package, and asked her to
> > > fold it to the proper size:
>
> > >http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/papersac.htm
>
> > > More on the Paper Sack:
>
> > > The Warren Commission believed and concluded that Oswald 1)
=C2=A0Took=
> > > paper and tape from the wrapping bench of the Depository and
fa****oned=
> > > a bag large enough to carry the disassembled rifle; 2) Removed the
> > > rifle from the blanket in the Paine's garage on Thursday evening and
> > > carried the weapon into the Depository building on Friday morning
> > > concealed in the bag; and 4) Left the bag alongside the window from
> > > which the shots were fired.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Commission also concluded that the bag
contain=
ing the rifle
> > > was seen by Wesley Frazier, who worked with Lee Oswald, who also
lived=
> > > in Irving and drove Oswald to work on the morning of the
> > > assassination. Frazier later testified that Lee told him that the
bag
> > > contained curtain rods to be used in his rented room in Dallas
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When the bag was found next to the window, it
was =
examined and
> > > dusted for prints, as was the rifle when it was found.. No prints
were=
> > > found. =C2=A0Later, "Using a standard chemical method involving
silver=
> > > nitrates the FBI Laboratory developed a latent palm print and latent
> > > fingerprint on the bag." (WR,p. 135) =C2=A0S.F. Latona, of the FBI
Lat=
ent
> > > Fingerprint Section, identified the print as the right palm print of
> > > Lee Oswald. The FBI concluded that "No other identifiable prints
were
> > > found on the bag" despite the fact that the bag had been handled by
> > > numerous people. The bag was found by Marvin Johnson, a Homicide and
> > > Robbery Bureau detective with the Dallas Police and his partner L.D
> > > Montgomery. From Johnson's testimony:
>
> > Raymond ....I'd like to suggest that you slow down and take this one
> > step at a time....
>
> > You can assume that most folks on this group know the stories and
> > legends about the various pieces of evidence, therefore you don't need
> > to post all of the crap about each piece of evidence.
>
> > You posted a whole bunch of erroneous information in this post and
> > I'll not attempt to rebut all of it. =C2=A0But just the opening
sentence=
in
> > the paragraph above is not true.... Which negates the whole
paragraph.Yo=
u wrote: "When the bag was found next to the window, it was examined
>
> > and dusted for prints" =C2=A0There's at least two different stories
abou=
t
> > the discovery of the paper bag. =C2=A0 One says it was discovered by
Mar=
vin
> > Johnson and LD Montgomery (but they could remember much about it when
> > they testified before the WC) and another says that Lt.JC Day found it
> > and asked Tuly if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered
> > "NO, Day folded it up and put it in his pocket.
>
> Walt. =C2=A0RE: =C2=A0" and another says that Lt.JC Day found it and
asked=
Tuly
> if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered "NO, Day folded
> it up and put it in his pocket. "
>
> Montgomery said that Studabaker picked it up.. "Wait a minute--no:I
> didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studabaker did---we left it laying
> right there so they could check it for prints."
> Johnson said that his partner, " Montgomery picked it up and WE
> unfolded it."
>
> Johnson =C2=A0Vol VII 96-99
> Montgomery Vol VII 100-105
> Day: Vol.IV =C2=A0249-278
>
> The bag had been removed by the time Day went to the SE corner to
> examine the "hulls"
> ("hulls"--- Redneck description of shell casings.)
>
> Belin: Did you take it (the bag) down to the station with you?
> Day: I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I
> left Detective Hicks and
> Studabaker to bring this in when they brought other equipment in.
> Belin: By this you are referring to the bag itself?
> Day: Yes sir.
>
> I have never heard about Day finding the paper sack and asking Truly
> if he had ever seen it. I would appreciate your source so I don't make
> that mistake again.
>
> Am I spelling the TSBD's Manager's name =C2=A0wrong? =C2=A0I thought it
wa=
s T-R-
> U-L-Y =C2=A0I noticed that you spell it Tuly and Truly . Which is
correct?=
>
> Also RE: =C2=A0"You can assume that most folks on this group know the
> stories and
> legends about the various pieces of evidence, therefore you don't need
> to post all of the crap about each piece of evidence."
>
> I really can't assume that most folks ON THIS GROUP knows the stories
> and legends, etc....... I have noticed that you are just about the
> only one who is that well informed. In fact, I was about to ask you
> when we can expect your book to be in the book stores. It's time that
> this case should be put to rest and you can be the one to do it.
> The historians will be grateful also. They don't want to make the same
> mistakes that I
> have been making.
>
> Thanks for the advise. I will try to be more careful in the future.
> --- Raymond
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"We found this brown paper sack or case. It was
ma=
de of heavy
> > > wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those
> > > books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag...I know
> > > that the first I saw of it, L.D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it
up
> > > off the floor, and it was folded up and he unfolded it... It was
> > > folded then he unfolded it... It was folded then refolded, It was a
> > > fairly small package." (Vol. VII, P. 103).
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detective Johnson gave the bag to Lt.J.C.Day who
e=
xamined it and
> > > turned it over to Detective Hicks and Studebaker, who took it to
> > > headquarters along with other equipment, (Vol.IV, pp267, 268;
CE626).
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lt.Day noticed that there was a similar paper
and =
tape of the
> > > same width as that used to make the homemade bag somewhere else in
the=
> > > Book Depository.
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From Day's testimony:
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr.Day. " On the first floor of the Texas Book
De=
pository, and I
> > > noticed from the wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a
similar-=
> > > the tape was of the same width as the bag... I directed one of the
> > > officers standing by me, I don't know which, to get a piece of the
> > > paper from the wrapping bench." (Vol. IV,p.268)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lt. Day did not take any pictures of the
wrapping=
bench on the
> > > day of the assassination, but returned to the building on April 13,
> > > 1964 and took three pictures of the area (CE 730, 731, 732) and told
> > > Commission Counsel Belin, "I don't think the benches had been
changed
> > > since the November shooting." (Vol.IV, p268)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Mr. Belin: Do you recognize at any point on any
o=
f the exhibits
> > > the actual tape machine that was used?
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Day: The one that we removed this from was
th=
e north roll
> > > and the tape on the east side of the bench.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Belin: You are now pointing at Exhibit 730.
I=
notice a roll
> > > of paper underneath the bench in the center of the picture. Is that
> > > where you got the big paper, the main paper on Commission Exhibit
> > > 677?
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Day: Yes , Sir. To the best of my knowledge
t=
hat is the roll
> > > we tore the paper off of." (Vol.IV,p.268)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Depository normally used approximately one
ro=
ll of paper
> > > every 3 working days. (Not all from the same roll-average total
> > > usage). Of course, Lt. Day did not mean that his sample came from
the
> > > same roll of paper yhat he photographed =C2=A05 months after the
shoot=
ing,
> > > and CE 730,731 and 732 clearly show that there were many working
areas=
> > > with many rolls of wrapping paper and at least 3 visible ****table
tape=
> > > machines. Despite the variety of paper and tape machines available
for=
> > > sampling, on November 22,Lt. Day was still able to select the exact
> > > roll of paper and the precise tape machine that Oswald allegedly
used
> > > for material to fa****on his alleged rifle case. How fortunate it
would=
> > > be to have a person like Lt.Day as a companion at the racetrack, on
a
> > > bad day, to help in making race selections.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr.Belin wondered about the tape machines:
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Belin: =C2=A0Were there other tape machines
t=
here also?
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Day: Yes, but I didn't notice them at the
tim=
e."
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Vol.IV,p.268).
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 So much has been discussed and written about
the =
treatment of
> > > the bag by the Dallas Police Department and the FBI, after the bag
was=
> > > found, that I will not belabor that aspect of the topic. It will be
my=
> > > purpose to suggest that there was no need for Lee Oswald to snitch
> > > paper or tape from the Book Depository since the rifle within the
> > > blanket, in the Paine's garage was already wrapped in paper.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is strong evidence that the rifle found on
t=
he sixth floor
> > > and used to kill President Kennedy was not Oswald's rifle. The sixth
> > > floor murder weapon may have been brought into the building in a bag
> > > made from materials from the ****pping room, but Oswald did not make
> > > the bag or carry a rifle into the building in a bag made from
> > > Depository wrapping paper. A bag for Lee's rifle was unnecessary -
he
> > > did not have to make a bag. =C2=A0Lee's Mannlicher-Carcano had been
wr=
apped
> > > in paper and placed in a "rustic" blanket in late September in New
> > > Orleans, and trans****ted by Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald to Texas
and
> > > the floor of the Paine's garage where it was observed and maintained
> > > by the Paines until it was removed from the blanket sometime before
> > > the morning of November 22, 1963.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Friday, September 20, 1963, Ruth Paine
arrived =
in New Orleans
> > > on her way back to Dallas after a vacation in the east and mid-west.
> > > Ruth planned on returning Marina to Dallas with her while Lee looked
> > > for work in Houston. Ruth and her two children stayed the weekend
with=
> > > the Oswalds and planned to leave for Texas on Monday, September 23.
> > > Lee had packed all of their belongings and, on Monday, loaded Ruth's
> > > station wagon for the trip.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In Priscilla Johnson McMillans book Marina and
Lee=
(New
> > > York:Harper&Row, 1977), the author describes the loading of the
> > > station wagon as told to her by Marina Oswald:
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"What she (Ruth) did not know was that among the
i=
tems he was
> > > loading with such care in her car was almost certainly his
> > > rifle,wrapped in brown paper and a blanket and tied up in
> > > heavystring..." (p.370)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 And more:
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"...When she was certain Ruth could not see her
sh=
e crept into
> > > the garage, to the place where Lee kept the rifle wrapped in paper
> > > inside the heavy blanket, a green and brown wool blanket of East
> > > German make that she had bought in Russia." ( p. 429)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In Marina's conversation with the Warren
Commissio=
n, she
> > > testified that, while looking for crib parts, she opened the blanket
> > > only to see the butt end of Lee's rifle. =C2=A0She was not asked if
th=
e
> > > rifle was wrapped in paper. However, she was asked by General
Counsel
> > > Rankin if she ever saw the rifle in a paper cover. Marina
> > > answered "No." (Vol.1,p.67) =C2=A0Today, with a better understanding
o=
f
> > > English, a "paper cover" might elicit a different answer.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mike Paine, who had moved the blanket in the
garag=
e more than
> > > once, was asked by the Commission if he had the impression that
there
> > > may have been any paper inside the blanket. His answer:
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, I didn't have that impression nothing
crinkled=
, no sound.
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mr. Liebeler: Was there any indication by the
crin=
kling or
> > > otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mr. Paine: That's right.
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Paine's vague answer, "That is right," did not
sat=
isfy Liebeler
> > > who returned to the blanket and how it was wrapped. Confused, Paine
> > > said, "I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I
could=
> > > grab my hand around the PAPER whereas this end, I think it was
folded
> > > over." (Vol. IX, p.439)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When Ruth Paine testified before the Commission
in=
Wa****ngton,
> > > she claimed to have wrapping paper at her home in Irving that was
> > > similar to the paper used to make the homemade bag found in the Book
> > > Depository.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Later, when members of the Commission staff went
t=
o the Paine
> > > home to examine the paper, Mr.Jenner took a sample of the paper
> > > provided to him by Mrs. Paine. He took a sample 3 feet 1 inch in
> > > length and marked it as Ruth Paine Exhibit 272. This exhibit appears
> > > in Vol.XXI, p. 3. In the contents of Volume XXI, this exhibit is
> > > titled: Sample of wrapping paper kept by Ruth Paine in her home.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In reality, this evidence and its claims are
misle=
ading and
> > > irrelevant. It has no connection with the assassination since this
> > > roll was purchased after the event. This, however, did not stop
> > > Assistant Counsel Albert Jenner from using the sample to mislead
> > > researchers.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At the time of jenner's visit to the Paine home,
M=
rs. Paine was
> > > asked where she kept wrapping paper. She went to the kitchen-dining
> > > room area and took a tube of wrapping paper from the bottom drawer
of
> > > a secretary desk and gave it to Mr.Jenner
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "And is that the remains of the tube of
wrapping =
paper that you
> > > had in your home on November 22, 1963?"
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mrs. Paine: No, this is a new one, similar to
the=
old one.
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Jenner: Did you purchase it at the same
place=
that you
> > > purchased the previous wrapping paper?"
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mrs. Paine: I purchased the rolls at SOME dime
st=
ore.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 At this point, Jenner should have realized that
t=
he sample was
> > > meaningless as evidence and abandoned the effort, but he went on
with
> > > the charade. He had his assistant, Agent Howlett, measure the width
of=
> > > the paper ( two feet 6 inches ) then cut 3 feet 1 inch from the
roll.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mr. Jenner: We will mark the sheet of
wrapp=
ing paper... as Ruth
> > > Paine Exhibit No. 272. Would you mark that, please Miss Re****ter?
> > > (Vol. IX, p.411)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The average investigator probably would
hav=
e moved on when he
> > > realized that he was examining a roll of paper that could not have
> > > been used to make a rifle case, =C2=A0but Jenner was determined not
to=
> > > waste the visit to the Paine home in Irving. =C2=A0And, for the rest
o=
f the
> > > evening, Jenner, along with his team of assistants, with their tape
> > > measures in hand, measured everything in sight.
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From the testimony:
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mr. Jenner: That your home is well set
bac=
k, we'll measure it
> > > in a moment, from the street, and it is a generous lawn with some
> > > bushes, that bushes are not as solid as a screen but they are up
close=
> > > to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree
> > > which I have therefore described as being a generous shade tree
about
> > > 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the cir***ference in a moment.
> > > John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the
> > > house to the sidewalk?
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 At this point, Agent Howlett =C2=A0saved
s=
ome time by announcing:
> > > "There is no sidewalk. There is a curb."
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 After a measurement from the house to
the =
curb (42 feet) they
> > > measured the canopy over the ****ch entrance, length and width (11
feet=
> > > in depth and 7 feet three inches from east to west. (Vol.IX, p.413)
>
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anyone watching this comedy would have
tak=
en Jenner for a real
> > > estate salesman preparing a brochure for a home sale. With members
of
> > > the Warren Commission indulging in such ridiculous conduct, is it
any
> > > wonder why there has never been any real enthusiasm for accepting
the
> > > findings of the Warren re****t?
>
> Walt. =C2=A0RE: =C2=A0" and another says that Lt.JC Day found it and
asked=
Tuly
> if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered "NO, Day folded
> it up and put it in his pocket. "
>
> I have never heard about Day finding the paper sack and asking Truly
> if he had ever seen it. I would appreciate your source so I don't make
> that mistake again.
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