On Jul 23, 6:00=A0pm, much...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> On 23 Jul., 06:14, Herbert Blenner <a1ea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 21, 9:12=A0pm, Grizzlie Antagonist <lloydsofhanf...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 21, 5:34=A0pm, Herbert Blenner <a1ea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 20, 11:57=A0pm, "Grizzlie Antagonist"
<lloydsofhanf...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > "Herbert Blenner" <a1ea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
> > > >
>news:6866bb03-55cc-4b5e-959d-58edd5c1a2b4@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > On Jul 20, 11:40 am, Grizzlie Antagonist
<lloydsofhanf...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jul 19, 7:45 pm, Herbert Blenner <a1ea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote=
:
>
> > > > > > > On Jul 19, 1:05 pm, Grizzlie Antagonist
<lloydsofhanf...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jul 18, 8:32 pm, Herbert Blenner <a1ea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
w=
rote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jul 18, 5:15 pm, Grizzlie Antagonist
<lloydsofhanf...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jul 18, 12:38 pm, lanc...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 17, 9:22 pm, Herbert Blenner
<a1ea...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > A prime example of that distortion is that diagram with
the=
crazy
> > > > > > > > quilt
> > > > > > > > drawing of a bullet making several twists and turns to
acco=
mmodate the
> > > > > > > > single bullet scenario.
>
> > > > > > > You are mistaking me for Wecht.
>
> > > > > > All of you look alike to me. You're from the same hive.
> > > > > > I have fixed the broken link.
> > > > > >http://mysite.verizon.net/a1eah71/temps/tumbling.jpg
> > > > > > Goodbye.
> > > > > > Herbert
>
> > > > > By golly, Herbert Blenner, that sure is a GREAT simulation that
D=
r.
> > > > > Lattimer performed.
>
> > > > Snip of huff, puff and bluff by HB.
> > > > You forgot to tell us that Lattimer's tumbled bullets made
rectangu=
lar
> > > > holes in his targets.
>
> > > Lattimer doesn't seem to worry about it. =A0It may have something to
=
do with
> > > the fact that his Connally replicas are made of cardboard and not of
> > > anything that my common sense would regard as akin to human skin.
>
> > > But Lattimer was trying to determine if there was "tumble" not to
> > > duplicate the shape of the wounds.
>
> > Doctor Lattimer's intention takes second place to what he
demonstrated.=
A
> > bullet with a yaw angle of more than a few degrees makes a rectangular
> > hole. Even the pathologists of the Forensic Panel recognized this
fact.
> > Source:
>
>
>http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/re****tvols/vol7/html/HSCA...
>
> > (425) If a missile strikes an intervening target, its normal yaw may
be
> > exaggerated, or it may begin to tumble. The entry wound in a
subsequent
> > target might reflect this distortion in trajectory by anything from a
v=
ery
> > slight asymmetry to an ovoid or virtually rectangular reentry wound.
Th=
e
> > latter would be the case if the missile were to strike sideways and is
> > somewhat similar to what was described in some of the initial medical
> > re****ts on the wound in the posterior thorax of Governor Connally. End
=
of
> > quotation.
>
> > When the length of the wound becomes one-half the length of the bullet
=
the
> > shape is a virtual rectangle.
>
> >http://mysite.verizon.net/a1eah71/temps/yaw.jpg
>
> > > > The parallel sides of these shapes differ from the
> > > > curved central ****tion of the elliptical wound on Governor
Connally=
's
> > > > back.
> > > > So this physical evidence alone excludes a strike by a tumbling
> > > > bullet and conclusively shows a tangential entry.
>
> > > I think that you're reaching here. =A0Are you sure that you don't
als=
o
> > > want to argue that the cardboard replica of Connally didn't lose as
> > > much blood as Connally did?
>
> > Forensic pathologists do not think that skin is made of cardboard. Yet
> > they recognize that skin behaves just like any other physical solid
str=
uck
> > by a bullet.
>
> > Source:
>
>
>http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/re****tvols/vol7/html/HSCA...
>
> > (424) The characteristics of the abrasion collar surrounding the
entran=
ce
> > perforation reflect the direction of the bullet at the instant of
impac=
t
> > with the skin and the angle of the trajectory prior to contact with
the
> > skin, as well as the shape of the missile itself. End of quotation.
>
> > > > I suppose you dozed off before reading in the WCR that Dr. Shaw
> > > > closed the
> > > > small hole in the posterior side of the latissimus dorsi muscle
wit=
h
> > > > one
> > > > suture while the elliptical surface wound required many sutures.
Th=
is
> > > > characteristic of a small hole beneath a larger surface wound is
th=
e
> > > > result of a tangential entry. By contrast a tumbled bullet makes
ho=
les > of
> > > > comparable sizes on and beneath the surface.
>
> > > What I read was Dr. Shaw agreeing to the possibility that his
patient=
was
> > > struck by a tumbling bullet. =A0He agrees that the back entrance
woun=
d is
> > > consistent with either a tumbling bullet or a tangential strike.
>
> > > But a tangential entry is not possible, given the facts of this
case.
>
> > You read lay opinions.
>
> > Source: WC testimony of Doctor Robert Roeder Shaw on April 21, 1964
>
>
>http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_006...
>
> > Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony
> > you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the
> > chest. What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics?
> > Would this experience-you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by
> > bullets-have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of
> > missiles, particularly bullets of this type?
> > Dr. SHAW. No ; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics
> > is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more
> > since I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone
> > into that aspect of wounds.
> > End of quotation.
>
> > So let's examine the expert medical observations of Doctor Shaw that
> > exclude a tumbling bullet and necessitate a tangential strike.
>
> > Source:
>
> >
=A0http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_00=
4...
>
> > The remaining ****tion of the serratus anterior muscle was then
> > approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The
lacerat=
ion
> > at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with No. O
chromic
> > guts suture.
>
> > Before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound
approximat=
ely
> > 2 cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a
> > latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain
> > subscapular space. This drain was marked with a safety pin. The
> > subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of No. O
> > chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin was closed with interrupted
> > vertical mattress sutures of black silk.
>
> > Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin
surroundin=
g
> > the wound was removed in an elliptical fa****on, enlarging the incision
=
to
> > approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this wound reveal
that
> > the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber
dra=
in
> > could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. A single
> > mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. The
ski=
n
> > was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black
sil=
k.
> > The drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with
> > safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire
> > incision. This concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and
=
at
> > this point Dr. Gregory and Dr. ****res entered the operating room to
car=
e
> > for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh. End of quotation.
>
> > Doctor Shaw closed the laceration in the muscle with a single mattress
> > suture while closure of the surface wound required more than one
vertic=
al
> > mattress.
>
> Apples and oranges. The skin wound had been surgically enlarged. This
> has been pointed out to you before.
See below.
>
> > This shows that wound track beneath the surface was smaller than
> > the surface wound.
>
> Well, what was the size of the muscle wound?
The bullet punched a circular hole with a diameter of about 5 mm in the
bulk of the muscle. Of course the bullet did not enter the muscle
perpendicularly to the tissue boundary. So the hole on the surface of the
muscle was elliptical with a minor axis of around 5 mm and a major axis
between two and three times the length of the minor axis. However, doctors
do not separate bound tissues. So the size of the bulk hole determined the
number of sutures.
>
> > By contrast if a tumbled bullet had struck Connally
> > then the track beneath the skin and the surface wound were have had
> > comparable sizes.
>
> You seem to be implying that tangential entries tend to create smaller
> wounds in the underlying muscle. But you also stated above that forensic
> pathologists recognize that skin behaves just like any other physical
> solid struck by a bullet. Well, muscle is also a physical solid, isn't
it=
,
> so why would it behave differently than skin?
Are we speaking the language? A tangential entry by a non tumbling bullet
punches a hole equal to its diameter. Elastic relaxation and swell of
tissues slightly reduce the diameter without changing the shape of
circular track.
http://mysite.verizon.net/a1eah71/temps/complements.jpg
The surface hole is elliptical with a minor axis equal to the diameter of
the bulk hole and an elongated major axis. Now that I have explained what
tangential means in my language ( an offshoot of FORTAN ) could you tell
us what tumbling means to you?
Herbert
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