On Jun 18, 6:24 pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:06:24 -0700,LindaLeewrote:
> > On Jun 16, 8:40 pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:40:57 -0700,LindaLeewrote:
> >> > [...]
> >> > Since fear of God (and God's punishment) is the reason many
atheists
> >> > reject God, yes, a night spent experiencing the supernatural would
> >> > probably be a very terrifying night for such people.
>
> >> You are greatly ignornant on the subject of atheism. Fear of God's
> >> punishment could be a reason for rejecting God, but rejecting God
does
> >> not equate to disbelieving in God. In fact, one logically must *not*
be
> >> an atheist in order to believe in God enough to fear him.
>
> > Atheists loudly complain about the Christian concept of Hell as God's
> > punishment.
>
> Not for fear of it, though. They point to it as proof that the
Christian
> God is evil (or rather, that that particular concept of the Christian
God
> is evil). Anyone who tries to justify eternal torment as good, under
any
> cir***stances, is pretty twisted morally.
>
> There is a book, _The History of Hell_, which you may be interested in.
> I'm afraid I don't know good references concerning the theology of Hell,
> but I suggest you at least think about it more.
I don't believe the Scriptures say that Hell is a place of eternal
torment. That is a misconception popularly known through Dante and
Milton. The Scriptures indicate that the 'unrighteous' *are* in a
place of torment following death (but since they are spirits, it
cannot be physical torments - emotional torment alone can be
horrific), and then at the time of Judgment Day, some of those who
were 'unrighteous' will be destroyed in the 'lake of fire'. Even
people destroy evil people i.e. execute murderers, etc., so if God
eventually comes to end of his patience and finally destroys the
spirits of evil people (evil spirits), I don't see the problem.
Evil should not be allowed to continue forever. There is the saying
'everyone deserves a second chance' and we have no way of knowing how
many chances God gives us all to become righteous (wor****p God)
because parts of Scripture indicate that those spirits in the place of
torment in 'hell' (Hades in the Greek) are 'reincarnated' into other
human bodies.
> >> On the other hand, rejection of God can lead, over time, to ignoring
> >> God, which can become a sort of atheism by default.
>
> >> On the third hand, fear of God's punishment is an extremely rare
reason
> >> for rejecting God. At least, I have never heard of it happening. A
> >> much more common reason for rejecting God is hatred of God for what
he
> >> has done. Usually this happens when people who are raised to believe
> >> that God is Good have bad things happen to them, despite their
sincere
> >> prayers. The God they were promised was demostrably not there. Of
> >> course, the problem is more with the promises than with God, but it's
> >> not like "God is good" is a fringe belief.
>
> > People *often* feel God is not good because someone they loved has
died,
> > which is so illogical as to be almost unbelievable. All living
> > creatures will die.
>
> It's not just dying. The world is full of needless and unfair
suffering.
> Many believers tell others, "trust God," and when the bad things happen
> anyway, those people learn that they cannot trust God. And I must
> emphasize that this is not merely an intellectual argument, but is
> something they know for a fact from firsthand experience.
But pain, suffering, sickness, and death are *unavoidable* in life.
Some suffer more, some less, but *no one* escapes suffering in the
flesh. That is the message of the book of Job. Physical life is not
fair and always ends in physical death. If 'believers' think they can
control their life by 'believing' solely so they can manipulate God
into giving them every little desire they have, or prolong the lives
of their loved ones forever, or give them a mate, or make their
children's lives pain-free, they don't know the meaning of trusting in
God. To trust in God is to know that he knows what is best and we
don't. I hope to achieve eternal life, but if God chooses to destroy
my spirit, He knows better than I do if that is best for everyone.
>
> I repeat, this is not a disproof of God, but rather of what people say
> about God. If everyone around you says the same thing about God,
though,
> or even worse, says that God cannot be different from what they say,
then
> learning that what they say cannot be trusted means, to them, learning
> that God does not exist.
?? Could you rephrase that last sentence?
> >> Getting back to atheism, there are three main reasons (that I know
of)
> >> why people choose it. The first is similar to the above reason for
> >> rejecting God, except more impersonal. The theists say that a God
has
> >> certain qualities which people can observe, those qualities are not
> >> observed, ergo God does not exist.
>
> >> The second is probably the most common. Quite simply, there is no
> >> reason philosophically to expect a god. Yes, there are plenty of
> >> so-called proofs of God, but they were debunked centuries ago.
>
> > Such as?
>
> The first cause argument is probably the most common. But since they
are
> all ultimately worthless, they are not worth discussing.
I asked 'Such as?' because I don't believe there were ever any
'proofs' of God, except perhaps for those who knew the Messiah
personally during his lifetime. Personally I don't believe the
complicated systems upon which life on this planet depends, and which
govern the whole universe was possibly an accident and had to be the
purposeful intention of what we call God. Do you know how
astronomical the odds of that are? Do you realize how complicated
your own eyes and ears are to be able to give you vision and hearing?
Look *closely* at the workings of nature, and you will see evidence
that God is behind it.
>
> >> Today, they are
> >> only used by the faithless to try to convince themselves.
>
> >> The third reason is the main reason why I became an athiest: the
> >> theists showed me, by their words and actions, that atheism was the
> >> morally superior position.
>
> > That's ludicrous. I've seen the posts on alt.atheism and the posts of
> > the atheists here, and they exhibit no evidence of being morally
> > superior to anyone else (although they profess to be so), rather
they're
> > morally 'low' people. In addition, you decided to reject God's
existence
> > because those who profess belief in Him are not perfect? Does that
> > really make sense to you? That seems rather illogical.
>
> People told me that God is love, and then those same people literally
> beat up others for beliving in a different God than they do. That tells
> me that their God, whether he exists or not, is worse than worthless. I
> grant that that is not a logical reason to reject God's existence, but
it
> is an excellent reason to reject their God.
It seems more like an excellent reason to think that they use God to
behave evilly, and that they are worthless, not that God is
nonexistent. They'll get theirs someday. Evil people lie, and many
evil people try to appear good to most people; otherwise, someone
might try to prevent the evil that they intend to do. All those who
claim they are believers aren't necessarily telling the truth. If
they truly believed in God and his eventual judgment, they wouldn't
harm living things.
> Yes, I recognize that there are good people who believe in God and bad
> people who are atheists, but the converse seems a lot more common.
> Believers, especially the most devout believers, are forever bringing
> suffering, in God's name, to the population at large. And though there
> are plenty of secular atrocities, you really have to hunt to find
> atrocities done in the name of atheism.
Atheism isn't a system of belief. It is a rejection of belief in
God. For example, Hitler had to be an atheist. Hitler used
Christianity initially to gain popularity, but his behavior showed he
didn't believe in God or he wouldn't have dared to destroy so many
millions of lives.
>
> Remember the big news story on 9/11/2001? That was done in the name of
> God. Are you going to argue that atheism is worse than believing in a
> God who makes people behave like that?
Jihad - holy war? The Islamic 'holy war' is against Christians and
Jews and anyone who isn't Muslim, atheists included.
> >> Consider, for example, Nomen's quote: "I truly believe someone has to
> >> be insane not to believe in God the Creator ..." I simply do not want
> >> to be around someone filled with as much bigotry as he is.
>
> > I don't see that as bigotry. I see that as being unable to understand
> > how someone sane could miss the fact that God exists. I also believe
> > if their minds were healthy, they'd acknowledge their Creator.
>
> You just said, practically in so many words, that you are a bigot, too.
Some of the atheists here do nothing to give atheism a good name.
> It is a big jump from "I don't understand why they believe that" to
"they
> must be insane to believe that."
It depends on your definition of insane. If God's existence is
reality, their unbelief indicates they aren't in touch with reality.
My uncle was an atheist. He was a very intelligent and good person and
I loved him dearly. He tried to describe to me once why he was an
atheist by telling me that the human body itself was a "miracle" (in
other words, God wasn't necessary to perform miracles), and he'd seen
it do miraculous things such as quit spurting blood when an artery was
cut. He couldn't explain it without saying things like that using
words that pertain to God. That's why I say underneath he knew God
existed, and he knew his explanations were ruining his own argument.
I just laughed when he realized what he was saying, and we dropped the
subject.
>
> Your attitude also shows a great deal of hubris. (You are saying your
> view is the only one that counts.) Hubris separates one from God.
Not if your 'arrogance' is to insist God is good, and God is the
Creator of all that is or ever was or ever will be. To deny those
things is what separates people from God.
> You
> may be more like an atheist than you want to admit.
We're all entitled to our opinions, but you're wrong about me. If you
are an atheist, you're one I can respect because you show respect
towards others.
God bless and protect you.
Linda Lee
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