1X2Willows a écrit :
> "Bob Thomson" wrote
>> 1X2Willows a écrit :
>>> "robert bowman" <bowman@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>>>
>>>> So that's where the rest of the cards are! I didn't think you were
>>>> playing with a full deck.
>>> Biblical apologists deluding away... whaddya' do.
>>>
>>> [fup2 a.r.a.]
>> The hell with those FU2.
>
> My newsprovider does not allow x-posting without fup2, therefore
> fup2 a.r.a. once more. You are free to ignore it and fill the others
back
> in.
Fine, then. It's so much easier if saying it from the start, but do I
also perfectly understand why you are probably not going to repeat it
endlessly to all newcomers like me... I'll do accordingly. I'll keep the
druids since a few of them seemed to me to be quite interested and even
helpful at the beginning of this thread.
>> (... forum control freaks issue ...)
>
> Actually, I was referring to some of your expressed beliefs.
Oh, OK, thanks for clarifying that too.
> a) you wished someone to biblical hell as if such a critter exists and
The short answer is poetric licence, and well, English is not my native
language and I know this can be a minor nuisance at times. I did not
imply that such biblical hell actually existed according to my beliefs
or experience, and it should be obvious that I'm not any bible thumper,
or at least, I strongly hope so. Well, should one be brought and I'll
try to see what I can do around a few of my experiences with Goddess
Lilith. (Well, this is the best disclaimer I think I can write for you
now.) :-)
> b) you're obsessed with consolidating historic panthei into one, a known
> strategy of apologists whose aim it is to 'debunk' the world's local
> spiritualities in favour of the one god theory.
Oh, I better see your point. Again, thanks for clarifying. It's not an
obsession. There could well be many groups, in which case I'd merely try
to generalize the concept transmitted by Asatru of both Aesir and Vanir,
not forgetting to express my thanks to the tradition that kept this idea
in what is to me an unadulterated form, and I'd try to see where it
leads me then. It's all in experience, trial, error and logics.
I'm expressing the tem****ary results of a still ongoing work. It will
remain ongoing until we all down here on Earth get a bunch more of hard
facts. If I did not proceed that way, I'd be unfair.
I'm going to say it here very clearly. According to the very limited
bits that I got back to date from the World Above, what I presently
grasped from it and all, in the upper part of the Multiverse that is
accessible to us, or at least to mostly all who end up successfully
mastering some ages old spiritual arts, there might be one Deity
recognized as the leader of the group which Asatru call the Aesir.
Even through the uncertainties brought by the ongoing nature of such
work, I can at least be already quite confident that this is the only
form of hierarchy / superiority / whatsoever among Deities that I'm ever
going to talk about - otherwise the only choice would be for me to
flatly and frankly tell about what I have in mind, a discrepancy (in
relative terms) between my present results and Paganism, and to thank
you all for your time - and maybe continuing to ask questions on forums,
but not this one. Well, this is only a matter of respect.
In fact, I consider the spiritual roots of monotheism on Earth as a
spiritual nuisance - which is not going to make me throw everything more
or less related to all aspects of the lore to the dustbin either (well,
maybe quite a bit, but carefully and for some reasons). On top of that,
I hate the idea of dogma, and whatever the shade, I'm in for living
spirituality, personal experiences, sharing, mutual help in this domain,
whatever people see as fit along those broad lines. I do my best to act
with caution.
And in order for you to fully see my point here, I think we can agree
that for instance the people who have wanted to condemn the whole of the
Nordic tradition because of the nazis' appropriation attempts are both
stupid, ignorant and irrespectful of true Asatruars. I think this common
sense rule of thumb can go both ways.
I already briefly mentioned a few things, and as soon as time permits,
I'll try to explain better what I have undertsood about a few issues
related to monotheism so far. I already stated that I think ****
happened when ONE Deity wanted to proclaim himself the only true one or
something of the sort, therefore trying to force all other Deities
around to adore him without him respecting THEIR divinity - without
paying them respect. And it then started a still ongoing war.
Lastly, Asatru people see themselves as a minority in the present world,
and we all know how it's dealt with by the majority - ignorance,
prejudice, hatred, paranoia, misunderstandings, marginalization, and
even sometimes, a highly superficial and short-lived fad that could well
bring more harm than good if the minority's members are not very
careful. We have seen it recently with shamanism. It may be true in
quantative and human terms, but who knows how the Gods themselves do see
things, from their own point of view? I'm sure you can see my point here.
> My personal advice to you: Lay off the Mercury equals Lugh and Freya
> equals Lilith bull**** et cetera et cetera. It simply doesn't work that
way.
Well, first of all, I agree that one could fill a deep well with the
dead bodies of all those folks who have been trying to work on cheap
versions of syncretism, because indeed, it does not work in a snap - not
mentioning totally irrespectuous and hegemonic attempts from start by
some monotheists which I'm sure mostly everybody around has already, and
rightly, yelled against one day.
I won't try to use Mercury, if only because I quickly found out that the
Ancient Romans were, comparatively to their Greeks neighbors, people
with, let's say, a degree of spirituality that could often be much
lower. I mean here, in broad lines, a much more utilitarian approach.
Like if Deities were merely good enough to bring rain, to win a war or
to take care of cattle - otherwise they were no good to nothing. There
are treasures of spiritual wisdom in some Greek myths which equivalent I
did not hear about in Roman lore, which does not mean I'm going to say
that all Ancient Roman stuff is useless, but which in turn could explain
part of the reasons why Ancient Greece fascinated the Ancient Romans who
conquered it, militarily speaking.
And of course, the situation is even more complex, because some
Etruscean Deities are most certainly hidden behind the Roman ones as
popularized, already quite later on, by the Roman legionnaires nearly
everywhere in Europe, then the Renaissance etc.
Plus I have a yet unresolved genealogy issue here, which has made me
refrain from already examining possible associations between Apollo and
a Nordic deity. Since I could back up, as a neo-shaman, a very limited
but interesting part of the Greek legends that concern Apollo and his
genealogy and siblings, not finding any satisfactory answer in Asatru
traditions could - shame on me - make me not only wonder what I did
possibly miss when examining Geek lore, but even ask around about the
possibilities of either a missing bit, a corrupted bit or, why not, a
still hidden connection in Nordic lore. In this case, I'd prefer hearing
reasonable arguments than the sound of swords at first hearing. Assuming
all goes well, a logical selection, at least for a first attempt, could
be made from Nordic Deities who were born from both an Aesir and a
Vanir. As I said, I have not yet begun to investigate that bit yet.
On the other hand, the association between Lilith and Freya seems much
more convincing to me. So there am I for now, with unfinished results.
If I end up finding out a very narrow similarity with only a small
number of discrepancies, also considering the big number of alternative
versions within various bits of a given lore, I'd consider the result as
highly interesting. Lastly, I'm presently sparing you all with some bits
that were brought to me straight from Up Above. Well, my own diary of
visions if written in French and I also happen to have a life, therefore
I'm mostly summing that level up in a synthetic way for now. I do think
that it will be best done on specific areas, especially the ones that
resisted the associations that I could do without too much headaches.
Another practicing shaman which I do value as a skilled and very ethical
individual once told me about a connection between Bridget (I did not
check the corresponding Asatru specifics here) an Kali, who is but
another IE Deity. In this case, I did not know much at all about her in
any of the respective traditions, yet this did not prevent me from
succeeding in meeting her a few times in journeys which were quite dense
in contents, this merely starting from a private message from this
person telling me I was expected to pay a visit to her Up Above. So here
for example, the "comparative" approach baaed on lore can wait, but seen
from my POV, there was something valuable.
As I said - ongoing work, anybody interested to participate welcomed,
hence the reason for me coming on ARA and trying to make good use of
cross-posting, without, I'll repeat it here, much prior knowledge of
Asatru (bue definitely, a sincere interest in exploring it more in depth
and seeing what I can learn, certainly plenty and including in
previously unnoticed directions - it has already begun).
--
Bob Thomson
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