Bob Thomson wrote:
> 1X2Willows a écrit :
>> "Bob Thomson" wrote
>>> 1X2Willows a écrit :
>>>> "robert bowman" <bowman@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> So that's where the rest of the cards are! I didn't think you were
>>>>> playing with a full deck.
>>>> Biblical apologists deluding away... whaddya' do.
>>>>
>>>> [fup2 a.r.a.]
>>> The hell with those FU2.
>>
>> My newsprovider does not allow x-posting without fup2, therefore
>> fup2 a.r.a. once more. You are free to ignore it and fill the others
>> back in.
>
> Fine, then. It's so much easier if saying it from the start, but do I
> also perfectly understand why you are probably not going to repeat it
> endlessly to all newcomers like me... I'll do accordingly. I'll keep the
> druids since a few of them seemed to me to be quite interested and even
> helpful at the beginning of this thread.
>
>
>>> (... forum control freaks issue ...)
>>
>> Actually, I was referring to some of your expressed beliefs.
>
> Oh, OK, thanks for clarifying that too.
>
>
>> a) you wished someone to biblical hell as if such a critter exists and
>
> The short answer is poetric licence, and well, English is not my native
> language and I know this can be a minor nuisance at times. I did not
> imply that such biblical hell actually existed according to my beliefs
> or experience, and it should be obvious that I'm not any bible thumper,
> or at least, I strongly hope so. Well, should one be brought and I'll
> try to see what I can do around a few of my experiences with Goddess
> Lilith. (Well, this is the best disclaimer I think I can write for you
> now.) :-)
>
>
>> b) you're obsessed with consolidating historic panthei into one, a
known
>> strategy of apologists whose aim it is to 'debunk' the world's local
>> spiritualities in favour of the one god theory.
>
> Oh, I better see your point. Again, thanks for clarifying. It's not an
> obsession. There could well be many groups, in which case I'd merely try
> to generalize the concept transmitted by Asatru of both Aesir and Vanir,
> not forgetting to express my thanks to the tradition that kept this idea
> in what is to me an unadulterated form, and I'd try to see where it
> leads me then. It's all in experience, trial, error and logics.
>
> I'm expressing the tem****ary results of a still ongoing work. It will
> remain ongoing until we all down here on Earth get a bunch more of hard
> facts. If I did not proceed that way, I'd be unfair.
>
> I'm going to say it here very clearly. According to the very limited
> bits that I got back to date from the World Above, what I presently
> grasped from it and all, in the upper part of the Multiverse that is
> accessible to us, or at least to mostly all who end up successfully
> mastering some ages old spiritual arts, there might be one Deity
> recognized as the leader of the group which Asatru call the Aesir.
>
> Even through the uncertainties brought by the ongoing nature of such
> work, I can at least be already quite confident that this is the only
> form of hierarchy / superiority / whatsoever among Deities that I'm ever
> going to talk about - otherwise the only choice would be for me to
> flatly and frankly tell about what I have in mind, a discrepancy (in
> relative terms) between my present results and Paganism, and to thank
> you all for your time - and maybe continuing to ask questions on forums,
> but not this one. Well, this is only a matter of respect.
>
> In fact, I consider the spiritual roots of monotheism on Earth as a
> spiritual nuisance - which is not going to make me throw everything more
> or less related to all aspects of the lore to the dustbin either (well,
> maybe quite a bit, but carefully and for some reasons). On top of that,
> I hate the idea of dogma, and whatever the shade, I'm in for living
> spirituality, personal experiences, sharing, mutual help in this domain,
> whatever people see as fit along those broad lines. I do my best to act
> with caution.
>
> And in order for you to fully see my point here, I think we can agree
> that for instance the people who have wanted to condemn the whole of the
> Nordic tradition because of the nazis' appropriation attempts are both
> stupid, ignorant and irrespectful of true Asatruars. I think this common
> sense rule of thumb can go both ways.
>
> I already briefly mentioned a few things, and as soon as time permits,
> I'll try to explain better what I have undertsood about a few issues
> related to monotheism so far. I already stated that I think ****
> happened when ONE Deity wanted to proclaim himself the only true one or
> something of the sort, therefore trying to force all other Deities
> around to adore him without him respecting THEIR divinity - without
> paying them respect. And it then started a still ongoing war.
>
> Lastly, Asatru people see themselves as a minority in the present world,
> and we all know how it's dealt with by the majority - ignorance,
> prejudice, hatred, paranoia, misunderstandings, marginalization, and
> even sometimes, a highly superficial and short-lived fad that could well
> bring more harm than good if the minority's members are not very
> careful. We have seen it recently with shamanism. It may be true in
> quantative and human terms, but who knows how the Gods themselves do see
> things, from their own point of view? I'm sure you can see my point
here.
>
>
>> My personal advice to you: Lay off the Mercury equals Lugh and Freya
>> equals Lilith bull**** et cetera et cetera. It simply doesn't work
>> that way.
>
> Well, first of all, I agree that one could fill a deep well with the
> dead bodies of all those folks who have been trying to work on cheap
> versions of syncretism, because indeed, it does not work in a snap - not
> mentioning totally irrespectuous and hegemonic attempts from start by
> some monotheists which I'm sure mostly everybody around has already, and
> rightly, yelled against one day.
>
> I won't try to use Mercury, if only because I quickly found out that the
> Ancient Romans were, comparatively to their Greeks neighbors, people
> with, let's say, a degree of spirituality that could often be much
> lower. I mean here, in broad lines, a much more utilitarian approach.
> Like if Deities were merely good enough to bring rain, to win a war or
> to take care of cattle - otherwise they were no good to nothing. There
> are treasures of spiritual wisdom in some Greek myths which equivalent I
> did not hear about in Roman lore, which does not mean I'm going to say
> that all Ancient Roman stuff is useless, but which in turn could explain
> part of the reasons why Ancient Greece fascinated the Ancient Romans who
> conquered it, militarily speaking.
>
> And of course, the situation is even more complex, because some
> Etruscean Deities are most certainly hidden behind the Roman ones as
> popularized, already quite later on, by the Roman legionnaires nearly
> everywhere in Europe, then the Renaissance etc.
>
> Plus I have a yet unresolved genealogy issue here, which has made me
> refrain from already examining possible associations between Apollo and
> a Nordic deity. Since I could back up, as a neo-shaman, a very limited
> but interesting part of the Greek legends that concern Apollo and his
> genealogy and siblings, not finding any satisfactory answer in Asatru
> traditions could - shame on me - make me not only wonder what I did
> possibly miss when examining Geek lore, but even ask around about the
> possibilities of either a missing bit, a corrupted bit or, why not, a
> still hidden connection in Nordic lore. In this case, I'd prefer hearing
> reasonable arguments than the sound of swords at first hearing. Assuming
> all goes well, a logical selection, at least for a first attempt, could
> be made from Nordic Deities who were born from both an Aesir and a
> Vanir. As I said, I have not yet begun to investigate that bit yet.
>
> On the other hand, the association between Lilith and Freya seems much
> more convincing to me. So there am I for now, with unfinished results.
> If I end up finding out a very narrow similarity with only a small
> number of discrepancies, also considering the big number of alternative
> versions within various bits of a given lore, I'd consider the result as
> highly interesting. Lastly, I'm presently sparing you all with some bits
> that were brought to me straight from Up Above. Well, my own diary of
> visions if written in French and I also happen to have a life, therefore
> I'm mostly summing that level up in a synthetic way for now. I do think
> that it will be best done on specific areas, especially the ones that
> resisted the associations that I could do without too much headaches.
>
> Another practicing shaman which I do value as a skilled and very ethical
> individual once told me about a connection between Bridget (I did not
> check the corresponding Asatru specifics here) an Kali, who is but
> another IE Deity. In this case, I did not know much at all about her in
> any of the respective traditions, yet this did not prevent me from
> succeeding in meeting her a few times in journeys which were quite dense
> in contents, this merely starting from a private message from this
> person telling me I was expected to pay a visit to her Up Above. So here
> for example, the "comparative" approach baaed on lore can wait, but seen
> from my POV, there was something valuable.
>
> As I said - ongoing work, anybody interested to participate welcomed,
> hence the reason for me coming on ARA and trying to make good use of
> cross-posting, without, I'll repeat it here, much prior knowledge of
> Asatru (bue definitely, a sincere interest in exploring it more in depth
> and seeing what I can learn, certainly plenty and including in
> previously unnoticed directions - it has already begun).
There's more connection between Asatru and the Hindu tradition than with
ME deities.
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/
- Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing cl***** in London
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